9 tuner system. Need help / suggestions.

[joe4]

I am planning a 9 tuner system for a local school.

They have a 2 directv dishes with 8 boxes and one antenna.

Here is what I am planning.

Server 3Ghz, 4Gb mem, 4Tb storage via 2 2Tb drives.
http://www.duropc.com/industrial_pc_...roducts_id=154

Ubuntu server 9.10 LTS

Tuner card. 9 x HVR1600
http://www.hauppauge.com/site/produc...a_hvr1600.html
http://www.hauppauge.com/site/compar...-internal.html
(could use suggestions on selection)

8 x SageTV HD Theater


They want to have TV in the cafeterias along with access via networked computers.

How many concurrent clients do you think the above will handle?
Suggestions on the server / tuner card?

I was considering the 9 of theSilicon Dust HDHomeRun so I could use a normal workstation instead of the server with a ton of pci slots.

IR suggestions to control the Sat?

[gplasky]

Just some random thoughts.

HDHomerun is OTA or digital ClearQAM. Not for use with DirectTV/Satellite.
Could go with one HDHomerun for use with the OTA antenna. (If that is what is meant by "antenna" in your description.)
HD-PVR is a USB device. You would need one for each DirectTV box. Could use either component (HDTV) S-video or composite inout (SDTV) This way you could use a more "traditional", better supported (thru drivers) server board.

In my opinion I would use Windows for better driver support and more tuner support. (But I'm biased and not a Linux guru)
Might want to give some thought to multiple NICs in the server and setting them up for teaming if you're looking for that many clients. It depends if you decide to record HD or SD.

What you have should support the 8 x SageTV HD200 HD theaters. The question becomes how many networked PCs (which require either a SageTV PC client license or a Placshifter license) you are thinking about also using with the system.

Gerry

[Fuzzy]

I'd also question the use of only two drives in the setup. Honestly, when you look at that many tuners, writing to, and that many extenders reading from, 2 drives could very well not have the throughput required. I'd almost recommend, instead, to go with 5 or 6 smaller, faster driver, in a RAID 5 configuration, for increased performance.

More importantly, though, is what are the goals of this system? Don't get me wrong, I do love sage, but in this situation, I'm not sure it's what you really want. If you are just looking for a way of distributing those directv channels throughout the school, there are much more robust, and more traditional, distribution systems available.

[bcjenkins]

I am biased towards Linux having started in Windows I feel it is a more stable platform.

That said, the HVR1600 is well supported in Linux and the driver lead is very active. The only challenge you might have out of the box is channel changing with the built-in IR blaster as it is new in the drivers. (BTW - You can only have one Hauppauge device with IR in Windows unlike the multiples in Linux)

I would check out CommandIR II or serial tuning. I would also suggest posting to Linux-Media to see if anyone has experience with that many cards in one system. If you wouldn't mind, please send me a PM if you do go Linux and run this many devices in one box.

Good Luck!

B

[ybrew]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

I'd also question the use of only two drives in the setup. Honestly, when you look at that many tuners, writing to, and that many extenders reading from, 2 drives could very well not have the throughput required. I'd almost recommend, instead, to go with 5 or 6 smaller, faster driver, in a RAID 5 configuration, for increased performance.

More importantly, though, is what are the goals of this system? Don't get me wrong, I do love sage, but in this situation, I'm not sure it's what you really want. If you are just looking for a way of distributing those directv channels throughout the school, there are much more robust, and more traditional, distribution systems available.

Ditto everything here. Absolutely more drives.

Also, not sure about this - you might want to check with sage to see if the licensing covers this, or if a commercial license is required.

[JetreL]

This seems like a really interesting idea. How are you going to stop people for being able to delete shows or are you going to look at using Sage for real time streaming? I have had limited results with realtime and DirectTV but I am using HD-PVRs and they can be pretty touchy at times.

I am using WinXP not and have just purchased the Linux license for hopefully more stability.

[SHS]

joe4 I have something to ask

They have a 2 directv dishes with 8 boxes and one antenna.

Do mean 8 directv receiver box in all?
Doing 9 x HVR1600 is not a good idea they run hot a lot hotter then 1800 so good venting is need here, be side you only need 8 any way after all the HVR1600 is a dual tuner so there for you can setup 2 or 4 ATSC at some time.
A better way to go is 4x2250 and 2x1600 with a GA-MA770T-UD3 or GA-EP45T-UD3LR motherboard an a case 10 slots expansion.
Other option PCI Express Expansion like Cyclone Microsystems - 600-2701 System Eight Slot PCI Express Expansion System there not cheap at all

If you do go with 1600 get the MCE model that way you have standerd RCA Audio Jack

How many concurrent clients do you think the above will handle?

I say no more then 14/16 as long you use a low bit rate a round 4.5MB/sec and keep number ATSC tuner to a min of 2 and maybe even possable push it to 4 who know may you be able to use all 8 ATSC Tuner but I wouldn't count on it with PCI bus.

gplasky I would not recommend HD-PVR that would not be good idea as it not most stable platform device in long run and I don't think the USB can deal with 8 of them

Hauppauge device with IR in Windows unlike the multiples in Linux

That ture for old PVR and HVR how ever the newer 1850 and newer rev 2250 MC-Kit that have new CIR support that built a round new IR/IRBlaster that has been taking care of for Windows MCE and this something jeff need to look in to sorry I don't how that work being I don't any newer boards.
There also the USB-UIRT
Two bad CommandIR II has no windows support

licensing covers this, or if a commercial license is required.

Any Public, Religious, Private, University School and Library are qualify as Non-Commercial.

As for Linux unless there someone know really stuff on how use it at that school I would not recommend it, instead stick to windows.

Fuzzy has a good point RAID 5 configuration, for increased performance in long run.

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by SHS

gplasky I would not recommend HD-PVR that would not be good idea as it not most stable platform device in long run and I don't think the USB can deal with 8 of them

The only reason I said the HD-PVR is the board he is looking at has support (that is the manufacturer offers the OS) of Win 98, Win 2000, Win NT and Win XP. Not sure how well it would work for newer versions of windows although it may be fine for Windows. The other drawback are IRQs. With 9 physical tuners he will run out of physical IRQs. No matter if Windows can virtualize them or not I see it being an issue. Two seperate channels of USB or an additional USB card should handle any throughput issues. Plus this would be the only solution for any Premium content or cable beyond the basic tier.


And I too would look at any type of RAID configuration for speeding up the drive thruput.


Gerry

[Savage1701]

OK, here are my opinions as I have tried a few of things you are apparently going to attempt. I have not read all the above posts, so please don't anyone take offense if I appear to repeat myself.

1. I have seen DuroPC and your particular board and PIC setup you are looking at. I have a concern you may saturate your PCI bus with that many cards, especially if they are all taking on OTA ATSC signals. Your NIC's may also be going off the PCI bus. I think many of these systems are designed for low-rate data acquisition by science types plugging serial data acquisition cards into the slots for measurement.

2. I can't speak to HD Homerun. I think you will run into trouble if you try to use very many HD-PVR's, especially on the MB-based USB ports. If you get a PCI-based USB 2.0 card, make sure it's a NEC chipset card. But you can still saturate your bus. HVR-1600's should be a lot easier on your system though.

3. I think basic teaming with server-side load balancing will be a must for you. But, again, if your onboard NIC's or PCI NIC's use PCI bandwidth, you are going to burn what you have available. The exception would be if you had a situation, as on some Supermicro server boards, where PCI x1 lanes or seperate controllers are assigned to banks of PCI and PCI-X cards. That can get you around it.

4. I think your PS is way too small. 700+ minimum. 12V Single Rail (Corsair, some OCZ's). Multi-Rail +12V PSU's run the gammut from awesome to gimmicky and 99% of the time decide where they allocate the rails. If you are not using high-end video cards you need to keep control of the rails. You should not need much of a video card on your server side to just check videos and do basic maintenance You will also be hard pressed to know gimmicky from quality. There is NO reason not to have a single-rail +12V PSU.

5. I think you stand a problem if you were to try to substitute USB tuners for your PCI ones, not that you are. Most of the USB buses can't handle that much and some burn PCI bandwidth on top of it.

6. 2TB Hard Drives, preferrably enterprise class since you are using this in a school setting. Forget Green Drives in this case IMHWO. They load and unload the heads so many times you can ruin them quickly.

7. SLC or Enterprise-grade c: drive. Fujitsu even makes a 60GB laptop SATA II drive that is enterprise grade and no doubt big enough for what you are doing. If you are running XP, which you ought to be able to since you are using the extenders to do the "heavy lifting" decoding, you ought to be able to get a full install of XP with everything Sage needs for 8GB or so. I have a 16GB SLC drive that I have used and it flies in this scenario.

8. GbE infrasructure for sure to every extender. High-quality "prosumer" grade smart switches, not the $50 8-port switches at Staples.

9. I've never got Jumbo Frames to work so I can't speak to that if you are going to attempt it. I've never gone past basic server-side load balancing, although my switch can handle static and dynamic link aggregation.

10. Pricey, but you can look at Magma Designs. They have an x1 to PCI expansion cage. The bridge controllers are usually hardware-agnostic. (I have used an ancient Avid audio extender with PCI-based tuner cards. WinXP just sees the DEC bridge controller as another piece of hardware; no special driver software is required.) x1 is 250MB/s or 2.5Gb/s so it can handle eight cards easy. But you would need a different PIC and board combo. A different PIC and board combo may also offer you a bunch of x1 PCI express slots to work with as well.

11. Look at a PIC card and board combo with PCI express capability. PCI-X won't cut it because your 32-bit PCI cards will downgrade the slots for compatibility. You may want to consider the x1 version of the 1600 (The 1800 I think) if you go that route.

12. I don't know if your hard drive controller can handle that many simultaneous streams. I use a 3Ware RAID controller for my 8 1TB drives.

13. If you go over single-NIC cards you will either need a 100-133MHz PCI-X slot or usually an x4 PCI-Express card. 4-port cards get really pricey. I personally only trust Intel when it comes to NIC teaming attempts. It's theoretically possible that the MAC created by a teamed NIC could re-trigger a Windows re-activation requirement.

Just a few thoughts. I've learned a lot of this the hard way.

[SHS]

The only reason I said the HD-PVR is the board he is looking at has support (that is the manufacturer offers the OS) of Win 98, Win 2000, Win NT and Win XP

The drivers are for Windows XP with Service Pack 2 or higher ver OS
Now playback of H.264 requires a fast CPU and at least 256MB of graphics memory I highlee recommend a min no less then ATI 3000 AGP/PCIe or nvidia 7800 AGP/PCIe as min for 720p or 1080i how ever I haven't check 480p or 480i and biggest headack will be the codec and splitter, but ATSC stearm are little diff being it base on MPEG2.
This one of the main reason why I don't recommend it not a good idea becuase like all school they usely have upgrade half or not all there old PC system.
Why I don't recommend HD-PVR
1: There pone to Lock-up on channel change
2: They run very hot even more so the HVR-1600 so good vent is must in fact it best mod them with fans.
3: USB2 can be very pick even on NEC base chip
That one of the main reason why I been bugging hauppuage for a PCIe ver and why that well let see for starter you get high PQ at half the bitrate vs MPEG2 that along free up bandwidth.

4. I think your PS is way too small. 700+ minimum. 12V Single Rail (Corsair, some OCZ's). Multi-Rail +12V PSU's run the gammut from awesome to gimmicky and 99% of the time decide where they allocate the rails. If you are not using high-end video cards you need to keep control of the rails. You should not need much of a video card on your server side to just check videos and do basic maintenance You will also be hard pressed to know gimmicky from quality. There is NO reason not to have a single-rail +12V PSU.

This not something he has to worry about unless he run highend video any cheap low end video card will do after it only a server
I'm run Corsair VX450watt and I'm very close to 8 input setup with mix of 1600, 1800 and 2250 and 1xHD100 and 2xHD200 and not to long I even had pair MediaMVP which be upgrade to something new.

Savage1701 all today latest motherboard Audio, NIC and Harddrive and even USB Controllers are on 1x PCIe bus and have been this way for 2years now.
This something you need to know onboard Audio, NIC, Harddrive and USB Controllers and the standerd PCI bus slot are not tied to same bus even far back as 9 years ago.

[gplasky]

I guess another approach to a system this large is to actually use some higher end PCs as a combination network encoder and clients. This way The Main SageTV server can easily support the 2 or 3 tuner cards and have two other high end PCs with 3 tuner cards each be used as a combo Network Encoder/Sage PC client. It runs the cost higher (3 total server licenses req'd but teo less PC client licenses) but if you're adding some PC as clients then the hardware part is a wash. (If you were only using existing workstations then those 2 PC would now be an additional cost.) This also gives you some flexibility in the location of the DirectTV boxes.

Gerry

[Savage1701]

Originally Posted by SHS

The drivers are for Windows XP with Service Pack 2 or higher ver OS
Now playback of H.264 requires a fast CPU and at least 256MB of graphics memory I highlee recommend a min no less then ATI 3000 AGP/PCIe or nvidia 7800 AGP/PCIe as min for 720p or 1080i how ever I haven't check 480p or 480i and biggest headack will be the codec and splitter, but ATSC stearm are little diff being it base on MPEG2.
This one of the main reason why I don't recommend it not a good idea becuase like all school they usely have upgrade half or not all there old PC system.
Why I don't recommend HD-PVR
1: There pone to Lock-up on channel change
2: They run very hot even more so the HVR-1600 so good vent is must in fact it best mod them with fans.
3: USB2 can be very pick even on NEC base chip
That one of the main reason why I been bugging hauppuage for a PCIe ver and why that well let see for starter you get high PQ at half the bitrate vs MPEG2 that along free up bandwidth.


This not something he has to worry about unless he run highend video any cheap low end video card will do after it only a server
I'm run Corsair VX450watt and I'm very close to 8 input setup with mix of 1600, 1800 and 2250 and 1xHD100 and 2xHD200 and not to long I even had pair MediaMVP which be upgrade to something new.

Savage1701 all today latest motherboard Audio, NIC and Harddrive and even USB Controllers are on 1x PCIe bus and have been this way for 2years now.
This something you need to know onboard Audio, NIC, Harddrive and USB Controllers and the standerd PCI bus slot are not tied to same bus even far back as 9 years ago.

SHS, I do indeed know these things. I also know there is a vast difference between what should be and what is. You are correct about the LAN's on this card being on x1 lanes. I was cautioning him about adding more on PCI cards. I SHOULD be able to stack my USB ATSC tuner sticks on top of each other on the USB ports on my board, but I can't without crashing. Neither can others in this forum. I have an Asus board that's a few years old - one NIC is on an x1 lane and one is on a PCI bus. I can saturate that bus with a an ethernet PCI card and a PCI graphics card easily. As far as power supplies go, all I know for a fact is that my server-grade 500W PSU system had all sorts of anomalies until I put several of the hard drives on a seperate power supply. And I stand by my statement that the multi-rail thing is a marketing joke. Anyone who works with PSU's knows this is true in ALMOST every case, except the rare few that re-allocate power to each rail as needed. I can crash the heck out of my Sage server if I load everything up on its USB ports. I put in a NEC chipset, which, whether you agree or not, is regarded as a better USB chipset. Given the choice, I'd put it on an x1 lane any day over a PCI slot. I never said every single thing was tied to the same bus. I said if you start putting everything on the same bus it will eventually saturate it, especially if it's PCI and it's for high bitrate stuff. This person is looking at a system that's usually used in an industrial setting for data gathering via serial cards and sensors. SBC computers and backplane systems are pretty rare in this forum, at least as far as what people are posting their systems to be.

[SHS]

Originally Posted by gplasky

I guess another approach to a system this large is to actually use some higher end PCs as a combination network encoder and clients. This way The Main SageTV server can easily support the 2 or 3 tuner cards and have two other high end PCs with 3 tuner cards each be used as a combo Network Encoder/Sage PC client. It runs the cost higher (3 total server licenses req'd but teo less PC client licenses) but if you're adding some PC as clients then the hardware part is a wash. (If you were only using existing workstations then those 2 PC would now be an additional cost.) This also gives you some flexibility in the location of the DirectTV boxes.

Gerry

Yup Network Encoder is any way but I didn't like the way it was done but that just me.
I like see more of ture Master / Slave server setup

[Savage1701]

Joe - personally, I think I would look at a SuperMicro reseller. SuperMicro has boards that have up to 7 or 8 PCI x8 or x16 2.0 slots or some combo thereof.

They also have dual CPU boards in cases with redundant power supplies in your price range.

Their quality is really there. I just think your choice of that PIC system may not be optimized for video recording. I've looked at building PIC systems and have built several SuperMicro systems. I thought they were better for video servers.

Obviously SHS and I don't agree, but he is correct that your board does have dual NIC's that are on x1 slots. I could find little else out about your board or backplane. I think you could get a kick-a** SuperMicro system for around the same base price and have KVM over IP, dual 4-core CPU's, dual NIC's, etc.

[Fuzzy]

This sounds like somethnig that IS doable, but I'd stick with SD for the sattelite receivers. This will significantly cut down the bandwidth requirements. Also, I think spreading the load is wise here. I'd say 3 PC's. Each, with 2 dual tuners. 3 drive RAID-5 setups in each, with the encoders locked to record to the local storage. Merits distributed across the machines.

[joe4]

First, sorry I am just now posting again. I never got the instant notification.

It looks like I will need multiple servers. Will the client software or HD Theater treat them all as one?

Has anyone used Red5 to stream via flash, I am considering this for the class rooms. All class rooms have interactive white boards hooked to a pc so the teacher could stream the video on her laptop to the 60+ inch board.

For clarification I am trying to make something similar to this http://www.snapstream.com/enterprise...w/default.aspx that works on both windows and linux.

Only standard def required. Cable in the class room programing is only SD.

[gplasky]

I think you need to re-evaluate and decide exactly what you need from this project. SageTV is more of a consumer product and is definitely different than the Snapstream Enterprise product. How similar are you tring to get? The Snapstream product is more a cross between a dvr and search engine for TV and finding audio bites from the cc info. The SageTV product is a DVR with media center capabilities of music, photos, dvds and online access to Youtube, Google video, etc. Two diiferent products which you are now throwing in there requirments for classroom-type capabilities. Sage should be able to handle the 9 tuner hardware and distrbution thru the network.

As far as multiple Sage servers, your clients and hd200s just talk to the main server. The main server treats the other 2 servers as just being another tuner (or 2 or 3)The main server will control the other two and tell it what to record and when to record. While they are doing that you can also run the PC client on those machines and watch just as another cleint on the network would. (The tuning and recording just happens all in the background when run as a service.)

Again, if it is important that it runs on both linux and windows carefully evaluate what you are trying to accomplish and what are the goals of a successful installation.

Gerry