Win2k3 vs Win7 - opinions

[macsupergeek]

I am getting new server hardware this week with 8gb ram installed, so to that end I thought it was time to setup v7 of Sage as a test and see how it runs before making the complete leap. Now I have to decide between Win7 64bit or Win2k3 64bit. Just wondering for I/O throughput with regard to ethernet, USB and firewire. Right now if I am playing a video on an extender where the video is on my Drobo connected via firewire 800 to the server and then from another machine that I rip my DVD's, if I copy the rip to the RAID over the network, the extender begins to stutter when using windows explorer copy. But if upload to the server using another means (kdx client to kdx server, if that means anything to anybody) all is fine. Any thoughts and opinions would be greatly appreciated as I think Windows 7 will be the way to go, as I really don't use any of the "features" of the Win2k3 server anymore ie Active Directory, etc. And I am just hoping that Win 7 has a better handling of multitasking, memory and other general tasks that an OS from 7 years ago doesn't.

[valnar]

Are there 64-bit drivers for Firewire? Make sure your recording devices have 64-bit drivers too. In any case, the decision should be between Win7 32-bit, Win7 64-bit and Win2003 Server 32-bit. Win2003 64-bit is not a good choice. (Yes, I know 32-bit will limit yourself to 4GB RAM, but isn't compatibility the most important?)

I'd go with Win7, especially if you ever plan on putting the Playon software on the same box. You'd have to hack-in WMP11 on Win2003 since that is a prerequisite for Playon.

[trini0]

I'd also choose Win7 for its more advanced power saving features..

[macsupergeek]

I have checked and verified 64bit drivers for the hauppage cards I have and HD-PVR, as well as, USB-UIRT and I will use the unibrain drivers for firewire -- so yes I believe I have all the 64bit drivers for Win7 or Win2k3, so I think all that is good, so that's why I am leaning toward Win7 as I would think going forward anything else would be more Win7 savvy than Win2k3. So my ultimate worry are the calls into the system, I would like to think that Win7 could handle all the requests, I mean some here run their server off WinXP just fine. So my hope is that 8gb RAM and a 64bit OS can't hurt things and a "more" modern OS can only help - right?

And yes I do plan on putting Play-On on the box, as I have it running on a separate machine and since this one will be more than enough, I thought some consolidation would be in order. According to Playon's website you can run it on Win2k3 with WMP 9 or higher, but I would think - newer OS is what Playon will continue to support, develop and optimize toward.

[Tiki]

Your signature indicates that you have Hauppuague PVR 150 and 500 cards. Be aware that these cards will not work if you have a 64-bit OS with 4GB of memory or more installed (with a 32-bit Windows, you could get away wtih exactly 4GB because in most cases 32-bit Windows would not recognize the full 4GB and would report 3.x GB).

Also, if you think you might want to use Firewire to record from a STB or change channels on a STB, there are currently no 64-bit Firewire drivers for this functionality. So, this might steer you towards a 32-bit version of Windows.

If you choose 64-bit Windows 7, 2GB of RAM is probably a bare minimum (from my understanding it is a little bit more resource-intensive than the 32-bit version). You will probably be happier with at least 4GB, but this will break your older Hauppuage cards.

[Spectrum]

Originally Posted by macsupergeek

... and I will use the unibrain drivers for firewire

I'm not familiar with unibrain, but a quick look at their website doesn't make it look like they have drivers for set top boxes, which is what is required for channel changing or recording via FW. Unless you know something most of us don't, there are no 64 bit drivers for STBs

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by Spectrum

I'm not familiar with unibrain, but a quick look at their website doesn't make it look like they have drivers for set top boxes, which is what is required for channel changing or recording via FW. Unless you know something most of us don't, there are no 64 bit drivers for STBs

I'm guessing that driver is for this:

Originally Posted by macsupergeek

Right now if I am playing a video on an extender where the video is on my Drobo connected via firewire 800 to the server

Gerry

[macsupergeek]

So wait -- even though hauppage has 64bit drivers for the 150/500 cards you cant use them if you have more than 4gb of RAM -- um, gee I thought one of the biggest points to the 64bit OS was to address more than 4gb of RAM --- so why then make the drivers. Any gurus out there to explain why more memory in a system would cause capture cards to not work with say 8gb ram? Oh gee there more addressable RAM, aahhh confusion, well I'm not going to tune a channel or capture that video. Has anybody tried this anyway and it really did fail on them??

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by macsupergeek

So wait -- even though hauppage has 64bit drivers for the 150/500 cards you cant use them if you have more than 4gb of RAM -- um, gee I thought one of the biggest points to the 64bit OS was to address more than 4gb of RAM --- so why then make the drivers. Any gurus out there to explain why more memory in a system would cause capture cards to not work with say 8gb ram? Oh gee there more addressable RAM, aahhh confusion, well I'm not going to tune a channel or capture that video. Has anybody tried this anyway and it really did fail on them??

Many people have been there-done that. It doesn't work. As confirmed by Hauppague. Those cards are old and were designed before anyone even dreamed of using more than 4GB of RAM.

Gerry

[valnar]

Don't think of your Sage Server as a PC. Think of it as an appliance with a specific purpose - to record television shows and watch movies in the most reliable manner possible. Once you look at it that way, the "need" to be on the latest and greatest (64-bit) goes away. What you need is for it to work, period.

I still think XP fits that purpose better, but some here like Win7. In either case, there is nothing to suggest that 64-bit is better or more compatible for this specific purpose. Sage does not need more than 4GB RAM.

[Fuzzy]

In a headless situation, win7 adds better power management features (Hybrid sleep is great). For a server/client, or even just a client by itself, I wouldn't recommend anything BUT windows 7. It really is that much of an improvement in video playback over previous OS's.

[Taddeusz]

SageTV itself may not need 4GB or more of RAM but it all depends on how much else you're doing with the system.

[Fuzzy]

Honestly, I don't think Sage will ever really use much more than 1GB of RAM (Java limitation)

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Honestly, I don't think Sage will ever really use much more than 1GB of RAM (Java limitation)

Actually, you can set it to use as much as about 1.2GB but that probably varies slightly from system to system.

But still, if you have a lot of other stuff running on the same system 4GB might actually be too low of a limit. The last thing you want is a lot of swapping to occur and slow the system down.

Edit: Not to mention on a 32-bit system with 4GB of RAM you're limited to somewhere between 2.5 to 3.5GB of RAM depending on your hardware. You'll never be able to use the full 4GB on a 32-bit system.

[macsupergeek]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

Actually, you can set it to use as much as about 1.2GB but that probably varies slightly from system to system.

But still, if you have a lot of other stuff running on the same system 4GB might actually be too low of a limit. The last thing you want is a lot of swapping to occur and slow the system down.

My thoughts exactly, instead of running multiple systems anymore I am hoping to transcode HD video faster -- right now it takes like 12+ hours to do a single hour of HD recorded video. Also, I want my playon server to be on the same box. The box will be headless, so playback isn't an issue so I am not looking to Win7 for that, just wanting to take advantage of the extra memory and multithreading.

[gplasky]

Both transcoding and Playon (because it too transcodes) will benefit more from multiple cores of the CPU than from memory from a performance perspective. (if we're talking about having 4GB of RAM in the first place.)

Gerry

[macsupergeek]

Originally Posted by gplasky

Both transcoding and Playon (because it too transcodes) will benefit more from multiple cores of the CPU than from memory from a performance perspective. (if we're talking about having 4GB of RAM in the first place.)

Gerry

Yes, I agree, the old system is P4 with 3.2ghz and 2gb ram. The new is a dual cpu, dual core xeon with 8gb ram and 2 HD in raid 0. So to go from a passmark score of 524 to 2991, I'm thinking that SageTV transcoding and Playon will both be happy and all apps will run nicely and comfortably in their own memory space with no paging. That's just looking at it from a hardware perspective, but what I don't want is to limit my future by choosing an OS that limits that hardware. There are those that would say then don't pick Windows, take linux instead and I really wish I could make that leap, but I am just not confident to recover from a failure in the linux world just yet. Right now when I "break" something in windows I can usually fix it, but when I do it in linux, I usually reformat and start over. Thanks to all for your input. Much appreciated. Just one more reason that I switched from BTV to Sage all those years ago.

[michelkenny]

Easiest thing is to just replace your PVR-150 and PVR-500 cards with some HVR-2250, a dual tuner card that takes up a 1x PCIe slot. Then you can have all the memory you want

[macsupergeek]

Originally Posted by michelkenny

Easiest thing is to just replace your PVR-150 and PVR-500 cards with some HVR-2250, a dual tuner card that takes up a 1x PCIe slot. Then you can have all the memory you want

yes, that's exactly what I did, I have one 2250 and ordered another other on amazon -- it came this morning and the server showed up this afternoon -- I have some building to do tonight -- yaaaay.