New product are coming

[SHS]

HDHomeRun SCRIBE DUO which act as DVR server and has 1TB of internal space and add bonus HDHomeRun SERVIO to add another 2TB storage drive.
Tablo also new product where can add internal hard drive with upcoming new 4 tuner model.

[NetworkGuy]

https://www.cordcutters.com/hdhomeru...uner-built-dvr

[wayner]

Too bad these sorts of products don't use SageTV as their recording engine as that would help our little community survive longer.

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by wayner

Too bad these sorts of products don't use SageTV as their recording engine as that would help our little community survive longer.

As much as I've loved SageTV I believe that's a good thing. Having different choices is a good thing. SageTV is not as accessible to people who aren't at least moderately computer literate.

On the technical side SageTV is really rather resource heavy. To squeeze this into a device like the HDHR Scribe DUO would likely not be feasible. When I compare the size, complexity, and resource requirements of SageTV to a comparable product, Plex, there's a world of difference.

Lastly, Java is on the out. As a programming language it's been mainly relegated to enterprise who invested heavily in Java when it was "hot". The write once run anywhere ideology didn't really pan out in the end. The JRE itself has come under fire more recently for being a security risk, especially on the desktop. As a developer there's no way I would start a new project in Java. JavaScript (don't let the name fool you) is actually the largest growing language right now. The modern internet is built on JavaScript.

[SHS]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

As much as I've loved SageTV I believe that's a good thing. Having different choices is a good thing. SageTV is not as accessible to people who aren't at least moderately computer literate.

On the technical side SageTV is really rather resource heavy. To squeeze this into a device like the HDHR Scribe DUO would likely not be feasible. When I compare the size, complexity, and resource requirements of SageTV to a comparable product, Plex, there's a world of difference.

That not true Taddeusz

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

Lastly, Java is on the out. As a programming language it's been mainly relegated to enterprise who invested heavily in Java when it was "hot". The write once run anywhere ideology didn't really pan out in the end. The JRE itself has come under fire more recently for being a security risk, especially on the desktop. As a developer there's no way I would start a new project in Java. JavaScript (don't let the name fool you) is actually the largest growing language right now. The modern internet is built on JavaScript.

The last bit is no diff then anything else out the

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by SHS

That not true Taddeusz

Which part?

[SHS]

Originally Posted by wayner

Too bad these sorts of products don't use SageTV as their recording engine as that would help our little community survive longer.

It may surprise you to know but 8 years ago there all ready hardware that did just that and ready been build in porotype stage dual tuner with 2.5 internal hard drive but need less to say some months later Jeff sold SageTV to Google, To bad Google didn't take it to the next level oh boy I beat they kick them self in rear now , I always wonder if Jeff hadn't sold SageTV where would it have been by now.

[SHS]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

Which part?

I update my post

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by SHS

That not true Taddeusz



The last bit is no diff then anything else out the

About Java? Possibly, but that's progress. I've been running SageTV for roughly 15 years. It was an exciting product for me at the time. It's an old complex code base that likely needs a lot of optimization. Not sure if it's the plugins I use or the SageTV base itself but I feel like there are memory leaks that cause it to eat up ever more memory as time passes and it never seems to give any memory back.

And it just looks visibly stale and unappealing to me now. Even with different themes the basic UI elements and even the fonts that are used just look dated to me.

I'm sorry, I'm sure this isn't where you meant to take this topic. I'll stop now.

[SHS]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

About Java? Possibly, but that's progress. I've been running SageTV for roughly 15 years. It was an exciting product for me at the time. It's an old complex code base that likely needs a lot of optimization. Not sure if it's the plugins I use or the SageTV base itself but I feel like there are memory leaks that cause it to eat up ever more memory as time passes and it never seems to give any memory back.

And it just looks visibly stale and unappealing to me now. Even with different themes the basic UI elements and even the fonts that are used just look dated to me.

I'm sorry, I'm sure this isn't where you meant to take this topic. I'll stop now.

Depend on the OS
Agree it dose seem to be unappealing
LoL

[tmiranda]

Glad to see nothing has changed in software development since I left the industry 20 years ago:

Update the UI because it "looks old". Spend 18 months on the update and 2 weeks after it's released some new "modern UI" comes out making yours instantly obsolete.

Codebase gets too big and complex to manage? Start over on the latest and greatest architecture/platform. Spend 2 years ironing out bugs and finding ways to work around quirks in the new platform you have adopted. When your're finished fixing bugs spend another year adding functionality that the old code had but you left out of the new code to get it to market sooner. When that's all done you discover you have a big complex code base that needs updating.

[wnjj]

Originally Posted by tmiranda

Glad to see nothing has changed in software development since I left the industry 20 years ago:

Update the UI because it "looks old". Spend 18 months on the update and 2 weeks after it's released some new "modern UI" comes out making yours instantly obsolete.

Codebase gets too big and complex to manage? Start over on the latest and greatest architecture/platform. Spend 2 years ironing out bugs and finding ways to work around quirks in the new platform you have adopted. When your're finished fixing bugs spend another year adding functionality that the old code had but you left out of the new code to get it to market sooner. When that's all done you discover you have a big complex code base that needs updating.

I don't get the "modern" appeal either but maybe I'm an old guy. Unless you're adding significant new capabilities, leave my "appliance" alone.

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by tmiranda

Glad to see nothing has changed in software development since I left the industry 20 years ago:

Update the UI because it "looks old". Spend 18 months on the update and 2 weeks after it's released some new "modern UI" comes out making yours instantly obsolete.

Codebase gets too big and complex to manage? Start over on the latest and greatest architecture/platform. Spend 2 years ironing out bugs and finding ways to work around quirks in the new platform you have adopted. When your're finished fixing bugs spend another year adding functionality that the old code had but you left out of the new code to get it to market sooner. When that's all done you discover you have a big complex code base that needs updating.

Hehe, that's pretty much it. If there's one thing in life you can be sure of is progress. I certainly wouldn't want to be using the web from 1991 now and that's only 11 years older than the first version of SageTV. To be fair the first version of SageTV doesn't hold a candle to the latest just as the web from 1991 is incomparable to the modern web.

It's not a bad thing that new things supplant old things. Maybe there's sometimes something to be said for keeping old things around. After all there are still people maintaining and writing COBOL.

I realize SageTV users have a lot of financial and emotional investment in it. There's still part of me that wants to keep using it. And for my part I realize that Plex is certainly not perfect. But I've come to a point where the investment is no longer paying off like it once was. For me I think that inflection point came after SageTV was open sourced and I realized how it was architected. Perfectly fine for 16 years ago but certainly not how I would personally design a modern application.

Everyone has their own choices. That was mine.

[SHS]

Originally Posted by wnjj

I don't get the "modern" appeal either but maybe I'm an old guy. Unless you're adding significant new capabilities, leave my "appliance" alone.

It look out place with Windows OS flat bold look a good example of this Tablo, Channels, Emby UI

[tmiranda]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

Hehe, that's pretty much it. If there's one thing in life you can be sure of is progress. I certainly wouldn't want to be using the web from 1991 now and that's only 11 years older than the first version of SageTV. To be fair the first version of SageTV doesn't hold a candle to the latest just as the web from 1991 is incomparable to the modern web.

It's not a bad thing that new things supplant old things. Maybe there's sometimes something to be said for keeping old things around. After all there are still people maintaining and writing COBOL.

I realize SageTV users have a lot of financial and emotional investment in it. There's still part of me that wants to keep using it. And for my part I realize that Plex is certainly not perfect. But I've come to a point where the investment is no longer paying off like it once was. For me I think that inflection point came after SageTV was open sourced and I realized how it was architected. Perfectly fine for 16 years ago but certainly not how I would personally design a modern application.

Everyone has their own choices. That was mine.

I actually agree that Sage needs some work, or needs to be re-written. (Sean has some good ideas in this area.) My point is that I don't ever expect this type of conversation to go away. There are always negatives with any platform.

I look at it as an opportunity. When Sage gets re-written I get to learn some new programming languages and techniques. Count me in!

[stuckless]

Originally Posted by tmiranda

Glad to see nothing has changed in software development since I left the industry 20 years ago:

Update the UI because it "looks old". Spend 18 months on the update and 2 weeks after it's released some new "modern UI" comes out making yours instantly obsolete.

Codebase gets too big and complex to manage? Start over on the latest and greatest architecture/platform. Spend 2 years ironing out bugs and finding ways to work around quirks in the new platform you have adopted. When your're finished fixing bugs spend another year adding functionality that the old code had but you left out of the new code to get it to market sooner. When that's all done you discover you have a big complex code base that needs updating.

Originally Posted by wnjj

I don't get the "modern" appeal either but maybe I'm an old guy. Unless you're adding significant new capabilities, leave my "appliance" alone.

As a developer (and an old one), I do get the appeal of starting over. The term technical debt exists for a reason, and it's real, and sagetv is full of it. I've started several branches around restructuring and modularizing SageTV, but, without unit tests, this is huge challenge. So, you can start to unit test all the existing code, but, of course, to effectively unit test, you need to start out with that premise, and unit testing legacy code, not designed to be tested consumes a huge amount of time. It rarely boils down to whether or not what I create is going to be better than what I have, but, will it be better maintained and can I attract the right kinds of people.

SageTV solved a bunch of problems that don't necessarily need solving today. ie, in the world of cheap android boxes, and apple tv, you'd likely never would create the STV style interface that only a handful of people understand. You'd probably just embed an http server and build out rest api calls around pvr and media management and build a native interface for those devices (or use React Native or Flutter).. But sagetv didn't have that luxury so, they needed to create something new. For streaming, would use use the PUSH buffer strategy of sagetv today, or, maybe just embed a httpls server (like every other solution). Would you build a custom database or use sqlite?

SageTV is heavy with technical debt. You can argue that you can just replace any of those things in SageTV today, and you'd be right. The question is whether or not for the long term survival of SageTV, would that be the best choice? Sometimes the scorched earth approach around product development is needed, if for no other reason, than survival. I doesn't matter how great SageTV is, if you can't attract people to your platform, it is dead. you can act like the record industry did with CDs and resist "new" technologies, but if you don't adapt, you'll get left behind.

Java is the most used programming language (or second depending on who you ask). But Java is killing itself. Since Java 9 and the introduction of modules (which are good), it's actually more complex to use java, and it's a crap load of work to retrofit projects. Sure, you can introduce Kotlin and try to be current, but then you just have a mix of two jvm languages to support.

SageTV will have to adapt. Sure, you can stay on the 'current' like people that refuse to leave Windows XP, because XP was great and nothing has been better since... but your days are numbered.

[wnjj]

Originally Posted by stuckless

Sure, you can stay on the 'current' like people that refuse to leave Windows XP, because XP was great and nothing has been better since... but your days are numbered.

And yet after more than 17 years, there are still plenty of XP systems still running. This is particularly true in commercial and industrial settings where upgrading is not an option or counterproductive. At work, our test equipment still runs server 2003 with Visual Studio 6.0 since it was highly integrated with the tester platform software. I'm still using Windows 7/Office 2010 daily at work as well. It's not broken (yet) so not fixed.

Contrast that with the frequent calls from my mom asking why her computer and smart phone keep changing things. There's updating and then there's just changing crap around when the new guy has a different opinion. To be clear, I'm talking about the user-facing experience. Change under the hood for performance or security reasons makes sense. Changing the GUI constantly is terribly disruptive to users who aren't instant learners. That's the kind of "change" I can't stand.

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by wnjj

And yet after more than 17 years, there are still plenty of XP systems still running. This is particularly true in commercial and industrial settings where upgrading is not an option or counterproductive. At work, our test equipment still runs server 2003 with Visual Studio 6.0 since it was highly integrated with the tester platform software. I'm still using Windows 7/Office 2010 daily at work as well. It's not broken (yet) so not fixed.

The problem is that with today's security environment broken does not necessarily mean nonfunctional. Certainly, you can keep using XP or Server 2003 as long as you are either ignorant of or accept the risk of running such old software. Having previously worked in a factory setting I realize that some operational equipment cannot be upgraded but must still be attached to the network (e.g., a laser cutter running Windows For Workgroups).

Originally Posted by wnjj

Contrast that with the frequent calls from my mom asking why her computer and smart phone keep changing things. There's updating and then there's just changing crap around when the new guy has a different opinion. To be clear, I'm talking about the user-facing experience. Change under the hood for performance or security reasons makes sense. Changing the GUI constantly is terribly disruptive to users who aren't instant learners. That's the kind of "change" I can't stand.

I don't know what it is about the human psyche but some people tie appearance with usage. So if something appears different but actually works exactly the same it confuses them. I think some people just remember things differently. I've had this with people who have upgraded from XP to Windows 7. It looks different so they can't use it. Even the different iterations of Android or iOS have enough similarities that within their respective bubbles they are functionally similar enough between versions even if they might look different. It annoys me more that some people refuse to adapt.

[stuckless]

Originally Posted by wnjj

And yet after more than 17 years, there are still plenty of XP systems still running. This is particularly true in commercial and industrial settings where upgrading is not an option or counterproductive. At work, our test equipment still runs server 2003 with Visual Studio 6.0 since it was highly integrated with the tester platform software. I'm still using Windows 7/Office 2010 daily at work as well. It's not broken (yet) so not fixed.

Contrast that with the frequent calls from my mom asking why her computer and smart phone keep changing things. There's updating and then there's just changing crap around when the new guy has a different opinion. To be clear, I'm talking about the user-facing experience. Change under the hood for performance or security reasons makes sense. Changing the GUI constantly is terribly disruptive to users who aren't instant learners. That's the kind of "change" I can't stand.

I think you are seriously missing the point. We all know that SageTV is the BEST PVR solution out there. But being the best, isn't going to be enough. If we can't attract developers, then, it's dead.

Today, we have a skeleton crew working on SageTV, but, I wouldn't call it active development. There is 1 developer working keeping the SageTV UI alive on something other than the HD300. The Android MiniClient is OK, but, if SageTV was relevant, someone would have have started work on an AppleTV version, or even some native interface on these cheap linux boxes. Where is that? Sure, you can run a full client... but, a running a full client was the very reason I left mythtv and xbmc and went to SageTV in the first place. We have what, 2 people working on windows 64 bit support (5 years later). 0 people actively working on the UI. 1 person working on plugins. 0 people working on anything new for SageTV.

I know it hurts to realize that sagetv is on life support, but, if you can't see it, then, we are in even bigger trouble.

You seem to remember that XP was somehow perfect, but, I had my share of calls from family using XP as well.

I wonder how relevant Microsoft would be today, if they said, "MS DOS is perfect, we are done, we don't need to do anything else".

Sometimes it's that shiny new UI that attracts people to your product. It's the first thing they see. It's one thing for us to be wearing beer goggles for SageTV, but people on the outside, looking in, see it for what it is.

[KarylFStein]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

The problem is that with today's security environment broken does not necessarily mean nonfunctional. Certainly, you can keep using XP or Server 2003 as long as you are either ignorant of or accept the risk of running such old software. Having previously worked in a factory setting I realize that some operational equipment cannot be upgraded but must still be attached to the network (e.g., a laser cutter running Windows For Workgroups).

The place I work bought a transportation company in Europe. Right as we were starting to integrate systems and working on a long-term plan to modernize them, (they had not put much investment money into IT for a while to keep their bottom lines lower to be attractive for a buy-out), the cyberattack that targeted Ukraine spread onto this company's network and destroyed basically all their core systems. If they hadn't had access to our shipping lanes and systems they would have been out of business. It took several months for them to get stable again. Needless to say the integration and modernization efforts were vastly accelerated after that...