HD PVR - Inferior visual quality

[Twinkle]

I just set up a set of HD PVRs and Sage for the first time. I made sure that the HD PVRs are recording at the maximum quality, and I captured through ArcSoft to rule out Sage - but even so, I'm not happy with the end result. The picture is significantly softer, to the point where it looks like I'm watching SD instead of HD.

A lot of shows are upsampled from lower quality source, so it's not apparent on all channels. But if you watch something like The Weather Channel HD, where they have the crisp graphics, it's easy to see just how much has been lost.


The question is - is there something I need to set in order to fix this? Or is this really the best that the HD PVRs can do?


They're connected via Component, and I'm not comparing them to another capture source, but to what the picture looks like with the receivers hooked up directly to the TV.

And I see that there are settings to adjust the basic picture settings within ArcSoft (Brightness, Contrast, Saturation, etc...). None of these are likely to affect the quality issue, but for what it's worthh, changing these settings make no difference to the picture anyway.

I'm running an nVidia 9600 GT with driver version 175.16 on XP Pro SP3.

[Brent]

On a few (not many) channels I notice a very slight softness on the HD-PVR vs. the Cable Box alone. But overall the PQ is very, very good for me. This might sound like a longshot, but are you using the cables that came with the HD-PVR? Have you tried a different cable just to make sure thats not degrading the PQ?

[Twinkle]

Originally Posted by Brent

On a few (not many) channels I notice a very slight softness on the HD-PVR vs. the Cable Box alone. But overall the PQ is very, very good for me. This might sound like a longshot, but are you using the cables that came with the HD-PVR? Have you tried a different cable just to make sure thats not degrading the PQ?

I'm using third party cables, but they're the same ones I used to connect the receivers directly to the TV - so I am definitely comparing apples to apples.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by Twinkle

I'm using third party cables, but they're the same ones I used to connect the receivers directly to the TV - so I am definitely comparing apples to apples.

When you connected to the cable box without the HD-PVR were you using that same component out? Just wondering if that component out could be the culprit?

[Twinkle]

Originally Posted by Brent

When you connected to the cable box without the HD-PVR were you using that same component out? Just wondering if that component out could be the culprit?

I'm using DirecTV H21 receivers - they only have one component out. I left that side untouched - it was literally a matter of unplugging the component cables from the TV and plugging them into the HD PVRs.

[mayamaniac]

How are you watching the HD-PVR's capture? If it's via Arcsoft or SageTV, then the video decoder can greatly affect what you see. Watching through the HD Extender is decent to me using its H264 hardware decoder.

Another thing is the output through the STB is already bad compared to digital tuners like the HDHR. And going from the STB via an analog component source to the HD-PVR and recompressing that to H264, you have to expect some quality loss.

When it comes to picture quality, it varies from person to person. But to say that the HD-PVR recordings are like "watching SD instead of HD" is just absurd unless there's something that's seriously wrong with your setup.

[dflachbart]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

When it comes to picture quality, it varies from person to person. But to say that the HD-PVR recordings are like "watching SD instead of HD" is just absurd unless there's something that's seriously wrong with your setup.

Well, or you are as stupid as me... When I got my HD-PVR and hooked it up for the first time, I also freaked out when everything looked barely better than SD... Until I figured out that my STB was not set to pass-through, but scaling instead. After I changed that I had to admit: wow, that's what I was expecting...

Dirk

[Twinkle]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

How are you watching the HD-PVR's capture? If it's via Arcsoft or SageTV, then the video decoder can greatly affect what you see. Watching through the HD Extender is decent to me using its H264 hardware decoder.

I'm watching it with Media Player Classic HC.

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

Another thing is the output through the STB is already bad compared to digital tuners like the HDHR. And going from the STB via an analog component source to the HD-PVR and recompressing that to H264, you have to expect some quality loss.

As I said earlier, I'm comparing the capture with connecting the STB directly to the TV - which is through the same component outputs, so that's not it. And while recompressing it might result in some quality loss, I expected the maximum settings to minimize it to the point where it was almost indistinguishable. But what I'm seeing is significant.

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

When it comes to picture quality, it varies from person to person. But to say that the HD-PVR recordings are like "watching SD instead of HD" is just absurd unless there's something that's seriously wrong with your setup.

You're not in a position to judge whether my statement is absurd or not unless you see what I'm seeing. And I have yet to find any mistake in my setup that would account for this.

[Twinkle]

Originally Posted by flachbar

Well, or you are as stupid as me... When I got my HD-PVR and hooked it up for the first time, I also freaked out when everything looked barely better than SD... Until I figured out that my STB was not set to pass-through, but scaling instead. After I changed that I had to admit: wow, that's what I was expecting...

Dirk

I'm not sure that applies here - it's a DirecTV H21, and I don't see how anything would need to be reconfigured when it was originally plugged into the TV from the same component outputs.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by Twinkle

I'm watching it with Media Player Classic HC.

Why Media Player Classic HC and not SageTV?

[bhyman1]

I've locked my H21 at 1080i output. Looks great. Every bit as good as HD should look.

[padre]

I've got two HD PVRs, recording stuff in HD and SD, and the quality couldn't be better. There must be something wrong with your setup.

[Qusix]

The quality on mine is great also. When I first got the HDPVR I did some comparisons with the cable box and I noticed that the picture was a little softer, but Ive been exclusively been using SAGE now with the HDPVR and do not notice the softness. Everything looks great to me and I'm throwing it up on a 110" screen.

[mayamaniac]

Folks, he's comparing what he sees on his computer monitor through Media Classic Player versus direct input from DTV box to his HDTV. Of course there might be discrepancy in picture quality. So many things can affect the picture quality on the computer, from video card, video settings, decoders, and monitor settings.

Originally Posted by Twinkle

As I said earlier, I'm comparing the capture with connecting the STB directly to the TV - which is through the same component outputs, so that's not it. And while recompressing it might result in some quality loss, I expected the maximum settings to minimize it to the point where it was almost indistinguishable. But what I'm seeing is significant.

That's my point, that you should NOT expect it to be indistinguishable due to the recompression from an already compressed source.

You're not in a position to judge whether my statement is absurd or not unless you see what I'm seeing. And I have yet to find any mistake in my setup that would account for this.

Yes I can say it's absurd. Considering how many people on this forum are satisfied with their HD-PVR picture quality and you are claiming it's like "watching SD" and that you are confident that your setup is correct, I call that an "absurd" statement.

[Twinkle]

Originally Posted by Brent

Why Media Player Classic HC and not SageTV?

Because I wanted to rule out Sage as an unknown (I only just installed it for the very first time the other day).

[Twinkle]

Originally Posted by padre

I've got two HD PVRs, recording stuff in HD and SD, and the quality couldn't be better. There must be something wrong with your setup.

Either that, or you're not noticing it. Like I said, with lower grade source, it's not as obvious. Watch the digital HD graphics that The Weather Channel uses (not their ads or when they have the pillars up). Do a capture of that, and then watch the same segment with your STB connected directly to your TV.

[Twinkle]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

Folks, he's comparing what he sees on his computer monitor through Media Classic Player versus direct input from DTV box to his HDTV. Of course there might be discrepancy in picture quality. So many things can affect the picture quality on the computer, from video card, video settings, decoders, and monitor settings.

I'm not talking about color reproduction, which is the primary area where there would be a difference. I'm talking about simple sharpness. Through my PC, I've got 1:1 pixel mapping, which means that it doesn't get any sharper. So if lines that were previously sharp are now fuzzy - I think it's safe to say it's not simply because the signal is coming from the PC instead of the STB.

EDIT: I'm not looking at a computer monitor - the TV is connected to the PC via VGA, so there are no "monitor settings" to get in the way, nor the other differences that would come from comparing two different displays, which is what you are mistakenly assuming.

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

That's my point, that you should NOT expect it to be indistinguishable due to the recompression from an already compressed source.

I said *almost indistinguishable*. The difference I'm seeing is significant, and I have every right to say that that's not acceptable.

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

Yes I can say it's absurd. Considering how many people on this forum are satisfied with their HD-PVR picture quality and you are claiming it's like "watching SD" and that you are confident that your setup is correct, I call that an "absurd" statement.

I see people every day that can't tell the difference between a 128 kbps MP3 and a CD. And people who are literally unable to detect a faulty video capture where every few seconds, the video freezes for a fraction of a second. So if your argument is that if other people are satisfied then I can't possibly be making an accurate statement, you need to open your eyes and stop being so close minded.

And unless you can tell me what I'm doing wrong with my setup, then you're not in a position to assume that I did something wrong to cause this.

[Twinkle]

Originally Posted by bhyman1

I've locked my H21 at 1080i output. Looks great. Every bit as good as HD should look.

I have my H21 set to 720p. I can't stand 1080i, personally. It's like I'm watching through somebody's hair comb.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by Twinkle

Because I wanted to rule out Sage as an unknown (I only just installed it for the very first time the other day).

Can't help you if you're not using SageTV for this. You probably should try support with Hauppauge.

And for the record I have tested PQ with the HD-PVR and then directly with the cable box. It's nearly perfect with no defects including on channels such as ESPNHD, DiscoveryHD and even the weather channel (hadn't tested that one until you - not really sure it's a good test to be honest). I think (this is only my opinion of course) that you likely have something wrong in your setup or you have bad HD-PVRs. I say that because of my experience and nothing more.

[mayamaniac]

Originally Posted by Twinkle

I'm not talking about color reproduction, which is the primary area where there would be a difference. I'm talking about simple sharpness. Through my PC, I've got 1:1 pixel mapping, which means that it doesn't get any sharper. So if lines that were previously sharp are now fuzzy - I think it's safe to say it's not simply because the signal is coming from the PC instead of the STB.

In my experience, sharpness can be affected by video decoders and settings and your hardware.

EDIT: I'm not looking at a computer monitor - the TV is connected to the PC via VGA, so there are no "monitor settings" to get in the way, nor the other differences that would come from comparing two different displays, which is what you are mistakenly assuming.

Still, the picture quality can be affected by video decoders and settings and your hardware. And its like your audio CD example below, if you put a lossless CD into a crappy player with crappy speakers, it will sound lousy.

I see people every day that can't tell the difference between a 128 kbps MP3 and a CD. And people who are literally unable to detect a faulty video capture where every few seconds, the video freezes for a fraction of a second. So if your argument is that if other people are satisfied then I can't possibly be making an accurate statement, you need to open your eyes and stop being so close minded.

Yeah, but to me, when you say its like "watching SD", that's like saying the audio CD sounds like an AM radio. From what I see on my HD-PVR, it's no where close to SD. While to most people on this forum, the HD-PVR quality is more like 320kbps MP3, meaning its not lossless CD, but it's pretty damn close.

And unless you can tell me what I'm doing wrong with my setup, then you're not in a position to assume that I did something wrong to cause this.

Start with playing back into SageTV. Set you video decoders to Arsoft in SageTV. And set it to VMR9. And then put it on full screen and playback an HD show that looks bad. Then make a screenshot of it. Then post that image so we can see what you are talking about.