Future of MyMovies and alternatives in SMM

[jaminben]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I guess the underlying question is why not store data in Sage the way Phoenix does.

You'll have to excuse me if I've got the wrong end of the stick.....I'm not a programmer, I just like playing around in Studio

Anyway.....the way I see it is that using our own database allows for alot more flexibility over the default database.

Example's:

Filtering and sorting with the current build allows us to apply 13 filters/sort methods simultaneously to your media collection. These range from description/title keywords to user rating and production year....obviously applying all 13 would probably never happen under normal usage conditions but none the less its still pretty cool to be able to do this.

Another example would be TV series metadata where you can filter by Seasons or Sort by season number / episode number / air date etc and apply the sort with ascending or descending abilities on both season and episode at the same time (show old seasons first but newer episodes at the top). We can even show you episodes you don't have and future episodes that haven't even aired yet with descriptions and the date their due to be aired etc (relies on online data). That last part is something that the Sage database cannot do as far as I'm aware as sage needs a media object to be able to assign it a media id and enter it into its database for you to view it.

The Ortus database is also keyed to an individual user for watched status / watched position etc ....something else that the default database can't do.

We can also edit the database on the fly from within the STV and have it update instantly on screen, this is not so much an advantage over Phoenix as that can also do this via the webui but the default database cannot do this without the use of another plugin.

As I said above, I'm not a programmer but that's some of the reason's why we wanted our own database......all credit to jphipps for creating the database and the nessesary api to access it

Cheers

Ben

[95TBird]

PLUCKYHD:

I want to start by Saying THANK YOU! for SMM!!

I was a Sage user for many years & I left due to it's poor support for Movies, boxsets & TV series on DVD.

I went to MCE (mainly for MediaBrowser & MediaCenter Master)

However I recently came back to the Sage fold & SMM is why!!

I agreed with you 110% when you said...

Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD

2. BMT and ortus don't suit my wants for movies. Everyone has different wants and needs and I get the privilege of coding for mine . I prefer multi disc support/offline support and boxset support. Those are all things I needed and wanted.

SMM was originally intended to be a unified SageMediaManager. MyMovies is just the first phase I did. I didn't plan on having to find another avenue to fit my needs so that has put a hitch in the process none the less.

I don't consider myself an accomplished programmer, but I am a computer professional & have 20+ years of experience debugging, testing etc. So if there is ANYTHING I can do to help with this new phase of turning SMM into a unified SageMediaManager Just ask!!

Again THANK YOU !!

-Bruce

[PLUCKYHD]

Ben reminded me of yet another reason still not sure I have give reasons but none the less.

Offline videos. I would have to create dummy videos in order to do this and that is less than ideal IMHO. It works for playon integration but not something I wanted to do.

Also syncronizing databases would be a nightmare if I used the default. I would have to constantly check and make sure everything was synched. As it stands now I just get the sage mediaid once for playback.

The more I think about it doing it "fuzzy" was would be redundant work and double work. Why should I have to write or in essence recreate the mymovies databse in sage database makes no since. Again tha problems comes from lack of knowledge by others that dont know mymovies I didn't and don't create the mymovies databse it is all maintained by mymovies.

I am done proving my points ad I probably shouldn't have had it or needed to.

[Skirge01]

Perhaps it would be better for the devs to respond to these types of questions with a standard, "Because it's the way that works best for us." It's accurate and would eliminate these "issues".

It really saddens me that this thread upset PluckyHD. Here's a guy devoting tons of time and effort to something he loves and he's having to come here and defend something he's giving away for free. What really bothers me is that this has actually led me to correlate this thread to Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men: "I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way..."

Keep in mind, I'm not saying this IS what has happened here, nor what SHOULD happen here, but I couldn't help but think of Jack's speech as this discussion went on.

[Fuzzy]

I honestly don't understand why you get so defensive about it. I'm not attacking anything. I was merely seconding what Stanger had brought up, that it would be better for the community as a whole if there was a more unified approach. It seems that every problem discussed in your SMM support threads has stemmed more from MyMovies than from your UI. That was my original point from about 6 months ago, that since MyMovies CAN write to the sageDB via properties files, that if your UI (I had called it SMM Lite back then) was able to simply utilize the default UI for most functions, then it would drop in right on top of sage, no matter where the data sources were. If MyMovies IS installed, you could then also use whatever custom functions they offer, but those shouldn't be required simply to show an updated SageMovieWall (which is all most SAGETV users would have ever needed). I know that wasn't really your target audience, I'm just saying that this approach would have served both communities.

Either way, it seems you are now doing a bunch of extra work at this point to try to separate from MyMovies, which wouldn't have been an issue if it had started separated. I was honestly trying to help back then (and this is what i was trying to build with you guys back with the fluxapi over a year ago - A more query like interface to the SageDB - wish I had the free time to devote to finishing it).

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD

We have been over this again and again MyMovies already had the sql database why should I recreate redundant databases makes no since. If people want mymovies in the default db they simple check the option to have mymovies write properties file and there. You argument has no merit to me.

I completely understand why you used MMCM for your initial development and completely agree that it would (then) have been silly and a lot of extra redundant work to try and load that into Sage, especially for your use.

I just wanted to pose the question again now that it sounds like you're going to go off and create your own database again. But then again, maybe you're not.

Stranger did you read my goals. My goal is to get rid of some of the fragmentation and allow people to use whatever scraper they want. A combination API if you will. I know fuzzy would say that wouldn't be necessary if we wrote to the db, we don't and we are not going to so this helps combine all the efforts regardless of the UI.

I guess I don't see this, you're saying your project will work with the stock UI or Phoenix or Ortus? Or that we'll be able to use any metadata with SMM?

Originally Posted by Skirge01

It really saddens me that this thread upset PluckyHD. Here's a guy devoting tons of time and effort to something he loves and he's having to come here and defend something he's giving away for free.

My intention was absolutely not to upset Plucky, but like I said, this is just the way my brain works. I work with hugely complex systems at work every day, and spend lot of time figuring out how different parts have to work together, so these sorts of questions just sort of come naturally to me.

I posed the question, and Plucky has thought about the issues I've raised and made a decision, and that's enough for me. It might not be the decision I think I'd make, but I'm not the developer, Pluck (et all) are, and I've got no problem with his decision.

[dbone1026]

Originally Posted by stanger89

My intention was absolutely not to upset Plucky, but like I said, this is just the way my brain works. I work with hugely complex systems at work every day, and spend lot of time figuring out how different parts have to work together, so these sorts of questions just sort of come naturally to me.

I posed the question, and Plucky has thought about the issues I've raised and made a decision, and that's enough for me. It might not be the decision I think I'd make, but I'm not the developer, Pluck (et all) are, and I've got no problem with his decision.

I don't think the issue is asking why a developer chose to go a certain way. I think the issue was that (at least it came across this way to me) Fuzzy was criticizing Plucky's choices with SMM, or essentially telling him the way he went about it was wrong/not for the greater good. Maybe that wasn't Fuzzy's intention and it just came across in the wrong manner. Either way at this point I think it just best for everyone to hit the reset button as the current tone obviously won't make for a constructive conversation.

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

It seems that every problem discussed in your SMM support threads has stemmed more from MyMovies than from your UI.

That comment right there show you don't understand how this functions in any way or form so I think it best you stop commenting on something you don't understand how it functions. Most of the issues are mymovies related that would not be even available using the default database.

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

That was my original point from about 6 months ago, that since MyMovies CAN write to the sageDB via properties files, that if your UI (I had called it SMM Lite back then) was able to simply utilize the default UI for most functions, then it would drop in right on top of sage, no matter where the data sources were. If MyMovies IS installed, you could then also use whatever custom functions they offer, but those shouldn't be required simply to show an updated SageMovieWall (which is all most SAGETV users would have ever needed). I know that wasn't really your target audience, I'm just saying that this approach would have served both communities.

You say that but MOST users as you have put it are using the advanced mymovies features so again.....My approach doesn't please you but that is not the majority.

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Either way, it seems you are now doing a bunch of extra work at this point to try to separate from MyMovies, which wouldn't have been an issue if it had started separated.

I am not doing a bunch of work to get away all this way in the original plan to support other metadata I just didn't expect no support from mymovies again....commenting on things you don't have a grasp on it what is getting to me. You are assuming how things function.

Originally Posted by stanger89

I completely understand why you used MMCM for your initial development and completely agree that it would (then) have been silly and a lot of extra redundant work to try and load that into Sage, especially for your use.

Thanks for the understanding.

Originally Posted by stanger89

I just wanted to pose the question again now that it sounds like you're going to go off and create your own database again. But then again, maybe you're not.

Nope not doing that again. Never have created my own database. The new metadata provider also has their own SQL database as well as my movies I have never created a db and will not.

Originally Posted by stanger89

I guess I don't see this, you're saying your project will work with the stock UI or Phoenix or Ortus? Or that we'll be able to use any metadata with SMM?

Both options are true. I made SMM independent as possible from the stock UI to allow flexibility to any new STV's. And when finished you will be able to use any metadata in SMM as well as use the new mymovies data or the new provider in any phoenix or ortus ui.

Originally Posted by stanger89;450256My intention was absolutely not to upset Plucky, but like I said, this is just the way my brain works.[\QUOTE

Not one of your comments or post upset me promise you that. You approached it correctly.

Originally Posted by dbone1026

I don't think the issue is asking why a developer chose to go a certain way. I think the issue was that (at least it came across this way to me) Fuzzy was criticizing Plucky's choices with SMM, or essentially telling him the way he went about it was wrong/not for the greater good. Maybe that wasn't Fuzzy's intention and it just came across in the wrong manner. Either way at this point I think it just best for everyone to hit the reset button as the current tone obviously won't make for a constructive conversation.

Spot on on both points.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD

Both options are true. I made SMM independent as possible from the stock UI to allow flexibility to any new STV's. And when finished you will be able to use any metadata in SMM as well as use the new mymovies data or the new provider in any phoenix or ortus ui.

Very interesting, totally missed that the first time

[Fuzzy]

I guess I am just not getting my points across correctly, and once someone gets on the defensive (even without an attack) there may be no recovering. I guess that's the downside of forums as a communications medium, and it's a shame really. That said, I really don't know what I did to get you angry, but I am sorry for whatever it was. I certainly don't see how me stating what I'd like to see, is equated to saying you did it all wrong. I guess I need to explain my point of view - that of a SageTV user who's never used MCE, MediaBrowser, or MyMovies, but craves a more impressive user interface for a large movie collection in sage (SMW, basically). If you can put yourself in that position, you just might see how one could be disappointed by the extra work and complication that having to install and maintain MyMovies adds, never-mind the cost in time and/or money for the points to get features that SMW had. You claim I am commenting on something I don't understand, though you make no effort to see the situation from my point of view either.

[tmiranda]

Plucky,

I don't care why you do it the way you are doing it, I don't care how you do it, just keep doing it. If you think somebody has a good idea, then use it. If you think it's not such a good idea, don't use it.

If there's one thing I've learned about techies (and I include myself in that category) in my 30 years of interacting with them, is that we all think we know the best way to do something.

My day job is now financial planning, and I can tell you that my clients who are techies know everything about financial planning as well.

Life is short, have fun doing what you're doing.

Tom

[PGPfan]

Originally Posted by tmiranda

Plucky,

I don't care why you do it the way you are doing it, I don't care how you do it, just keep doing it. If you think somebody has a good idea, then use it. If you think it's not such a good idea, don't use it.

If there's one thing I've learned about techies (and I include myself in that category) in my 30 years of interacting with them, is that we all think we know the best way to do something.

My day job is now financial planning, and I can tell you that my clients who are techies know everything about financial planning as well.

Life is short, have fun doing what you're doing.

Tom

Well put, Tom!

Plucky, bottom line is that you've done a great job with SMM - all "armchair quarterbacks" that have their own thoughts are welcome to put their theories into practice - but you've done what you set out to do, and thanks to you, we've been able to reap the benefits! For that, I'm eternally grateful!

I hope that whatever solution it is that you end up using will end up having open api's so that others can extend your concepts further as well.

Sorry to see MyMovies folks turn a deaf ear like they seem to be - I've tried myself to work with them on a HSM project but was never able attract attention from them.

-PGPfan

[Hyrules]

What was ther name of that movie again... Field of dreams ! Build it and they will come ! For plucky it would be Program it and they will use it. I shall say if people are not happy with SMM then dont use it. Otherwise as many, i'm loving it and find it a nice addition to sagetv which is really practical and make a hell of a good impression when i'm showing my media center to my friends.

[teq]

Plucky,

I would also like to thank you for your great work! I believe SMM already has accomplished a lot and shows great promise of things yet to come.

Personally, my priority - if I may say so - would be if you could complete/polish the functionality for the current MyMovies basis (for example make the 'Info' screen fully functional) before you add support for additional plattforms/scrapers. I actually moved from SageMC/DVD Profiler combination to SMM/MyMovies due to your project, and it took me some time to make this transition (considering I had more than 500 DVDs in DVD Profiler). And I think SMM could really profit from polishing the rough edges/completing the base functionality - this might improve the WAF (which at least in my case can't match SageMC yet).

Just my 5 cents.

Cheers,
teq

[RetroBox]

Since this thread is titled "Future of MyMovies", I would like to make a make a request for future functionality - I do feel kind of silly doing it though, for we've already gotten so much. Thanks, Plucky.

Since it seems that SMM is heading into the media aggregator category, something I would really like to see is some sort of integration with the MeadiaShrink v3.0 video conversion tool. I am bumbed that the native Sage conversion tools only apply to recorded Favorites (?) and can only be set proactively - i.e. cannot convert an already recorded show. It would be really neat to have a menu when selecting videos or DVD that provides the ability to send a file for conversion and a page to show its progress. I have no idea what it would take to integrate this, but I think a tool like this would take media management to a whole new level.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by RetroBox

Since it seems that SMM is heading into the media aggregator category, something I would really like to see is some sort of integration with the MeadiaShrink v3.0 video conversion tool. I am bumbed that the native Sage conversion tools only apply to recorded Favorites (?) and can only be set proactively - i.e. cannot convert an already recorded show. It would be really neat to have a menu when selecting videos or DVD that provides the ability to send a file for conversion and a page to show its progress. I have no idea what it would take to integrate this, but I think a tool like this would take media management to a whole new level.

First of all, you should be able to convert already recorded media, the conversion options are not ONLY a the favorite level. (Yes, if a show is already converted, it will not go back and utilize the favorite level auto-convert settings, but you can easily choose Convert All from a group of recordings). As for converting DVD's, I'm not sure how well that would work.. You'd have to choose what title you want to convert, for starters.

[RetroBox]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

First of all, you should be able to convert already recorded media, the conversion options are not ONLY a the favorite level. (Yes, if a show is already converted, it will not go back and utilize the favorite level auto-convert settings, but you can easily choose Convert All from a group of recordings).

From what you're saying, I can convert recordings and videos to, say, iPod format whenever I choose using delivered functionality? I looked again for an option to do this and I cannot find it... how can I do this?

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

As for converting DVD's, I'm not sure how well that would work.. You'd have to choose what title you want to convert, for starters.

True, titles would need to be chosen and a "playlist" would need to be developed if there is more than one title for the conversion to take place. However, it may be possible to add some intelligence for this to happen automatically since (I'm guessing) most people that want DVD's converted are looking for the main title. The ability to do this seamlessly within Sage is something I would really like to see.

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by RetroBox

True, titles would need to be chosen and a "playlist" would need to be developed if there is more than one title for the conversion to take place. However, it may be possible to add some intelligence for this to happen automatically since (I'm guessing) most people that want DVD's converted are looking for the main title. The ability to do this seamlessly within Sage is something I would really like to see.

Most would then only rip the main title originally though...

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by RetroBox

From what you're saying, I can convert recordings and videos to, say, iPod format whenever I choose using delivered functionality? I looked again for an option to do this and I cannot find it... how can I do this?

From any given (non-DVD/BDMV) video (recorded or otherwise), choose 'Convert' from the options menu, then, when asked for the format, choose iPod or whatever

[RetroBox]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

From any given (non-DVD/BDMV) video (recorded or otherwise), choose 'Convert' from the options menu, then, when asked for the format, choose iPod or whatever

I don't see that option . I do not want to hijack the thread with this issue, but I cannot see Convert in the options menu in v7. I have attached a picture of what I'm looking at.