All in one PVR/Receiver, what are your thoughts?

[smoogoo]

I figure it’s just about time for me to build a new box with the 2TB drives coming down in price. This time around I thought I would try building a build an all in one PVR/Receiver do you see any problems with me putting both in one box?

The box will need to handle HDIM audio in so I can out put it into a speaker system and I was kind of looking at http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/
For handing the HDMI in but I’m not quite sure how to make this work does anyone have any suggestions?

[blueroom]

I've never seen an HDMI input on an audio card. Why not use SPDIF?

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by smoogoo

I figure it’s just about time for me to build a new box with the 2TB drives coming down in price. This time around I thought I would try building a build an all in one PVR/Receiver do you see any problems with me putting both in one box?

Just build a headless server, get an HD200, an AVR and a good remote and I think you'll be much happier.

The box will need to handle HDIM audio in so I can out put it into a speaker system and I was kind of looking at http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/
For handing the HDMI in but I’m not quite sure how to make this work does anyone have any suggestions?

I'm not following how an HDMI input would feed into a speaker system. Beside the fact that the intensity doesn't support anything beyond Stereo, and maybe AC3 for audio.

[paulbeers]

Originally Posted by blueroom

I've never seen an HDMI input on an audio card. Why not use SPDIF?

Yeah why not SPDIF in. Then your vid card can pass the digital audio to your stereo via hdmi? You don't need to have HDMI in to have HDMI out, you do know that right? And no broadcast televison does anything more than 5.1 so it isn't like the SPDIF in would make you miss out on something....

I am very confused by what the OP wants to do.

[babgvant]

PC and AVR have very different life spans. The only way I would combine both is if there wasn't enough space for both where you want to use it.

That said, there's a MSI board that has a built in (addin card maybe) amp that could do this (not the HDMI part, but like everyone else I'm not sure what this is for).

[PGPfan]

Originally Posted by babgvant

That said, there's a MSI board that has a built in (addin card maybe) amp that could do this (not the HDMI part, but like everyone else I'm not sure what this is for).

That would be the MS-7411 DIVA, and I LOVE mine. It is an add-in card (only works with this board) that is a 5x100w/ch amp. It simply baffles me (and the folks I've demo'ed it to) how a "computer" can sound so good!

-PGPfan

[jsonnabend]

5 channel, 100w/channel amplifier on a card? And it sounds good? I'm curious, against what have you compared the sound? What is your source material?

- Jeff

[PGPfan]

Originally Posted by jsonnabend

5 channel, 100w/channel amplifier on a card? And it sounds good? I'm curious, against what have you compared the sound? What is your source material?

- Jeff

Yes, it does sound quite good! I don't think anyone who heard it hasn't been shocked by the sound quality. There are many people that think that a PC is 'too noisy an environment', etc. but they haven't heard this. The only way to believe it is to hear it yourself (or look at the big thread over at AVS forum).

You might want to do a little reading HERE to get a feeling of what this is capable of!

It's actually a combination of a chip (D2Audio DAE-3) which controls power management (hence the reason the card ONLY works in this board) and the actual amp card. As for comparisons, I've owned Carver, Denon, Sony ES, Onkyo, Yamaha, and Luxman. It is a 'digital amplifier' that runs at 93% efficient - quite an interesting platform, really.

Source material? Music cd's, movies, etc. What specifically did you mean?

-PGPfan

[babgvant]

Everything I've seen on the system were exceedingly positive. If you keep your HW around for a while and space/cost is an issue I'd certainly look at it.

My only issue w/ it is that you've tied your upgrade cycles together.

[jsonnabend]

Originally Posted by PGPfan

Yes, it does sound quite good! I don't think anyone who heard it hasn't been shocked by the sound quality. There are many people that think that a PC is 'too noisy an environment', etc. but they haven't heard this. The only way to believe it is to hear it yourself (or look at the big thread over at AVS forum).

You might want to do a little reading HERE to get a feeling of what this is capable of!

It's actually a combination of a chip (D2Audio DAE-3) which controls power management (hence the reason the card ONLY works in this board) and the actual amp card. As for comparisons, I've owned Carver, Denon, Sony ES, Onkyo, Yamaha, and Luxman. It is a 'digital amplifier' that runs at 93% efficient - quite an interesting platform, really.

Source material? Music cd's, movies, etc. What specifically did you mean?

-PGPfan

I was curious whether you were playing high quality audio sources or lossy sources. I guess I'm a bit old school when it comes to audio, and my initial reaction is skepticism when I hear that a chip-based amplifier-on-a-card can sound as good as my 40 pound Bryston. Hopefully, I'll be able to hear one of these amplifiers-on-a-card for myself.

What comprises the rest of the system?

- Jeff

[vikingisson]

Originally Posted by jsonnabend

I was curious whether you were playing high quality audio sources or lossy sources. I guess I'm a bit old school when it comes to audio, and my initial reaction is skepticism when I hear that a chip-based amplifier-on-a-card can sound as good as my 40 pound Bryston. Hopefully, I'll be able to hear one of these amplifiers-on-a-card for myself.

What comprises the rest of the system?

- Jeff

I'm with you on that. I prefer a digital connection to a proper amp plus quality speakers. Not everything I listen to is pc based so I have the flexibility of many sources.
But who knows, a good amp on a card might sound ok but since I already have a good amp I can't believe I'd gain anything from making the pc do the work. Some modern amps have very good digital to analog chips for both audio and video.
Reminds me of the extender vs pc argument, I want the pc I already own to do video but for audio I'll stick with an external amp.

[babgvant]

It's important to keep cost in mind when discussing the system. It's not going to do as well as a $3K AVR. A better starting place would be how well does it perform against a similar price point where the PC and AVR are discrete, and work up from there.

[PGPfan]

I understand why people 'think' a system like this can't sound good - or as good as - traditional audio equipment. It's hard to get one's brain around it, but it does work. Most existing amps are big and heavy due to heatsink size, and power supply transformer size. This is digital audio, where it is MUCH more efficient and as such no longer needs to be huge and heavy.

There have been many reviews of digital amps over the years, most with glowing comments as to sound quality. I'm not saying they are perfect by any means, but they get better and better as time goes on and designs are improved.

Pretty much all audio now is digital at some point in the production chain - meaning that 'digital' doesn't have to sound 'bad'. If properly handled, digital audio sounds VERY good, in my opinion.

As for source material, most of my rips are lossless, I have a Sony ES cd player that I connect to it. As for speakers, I'm currently using older Polk Audio (back when they were good) SDA-CRS+'s for mains, Polk center channel, and surrounds.

FWIW, this system compares favorably with AVR's in the $1k-$1.5 range.

-PGPfan

[jsonnabend]

Quality class A/B/AB amps are big primarily due to transformer and capacitor size. I'm no expert, but I think both are important for transients/headroom.

My understanding of "digital" amps is that "digital" is a bit of a misnomer (they're also called "class D") -- they still supply current to a load (the speakers) in the analog domain. I think higher end class D amps, while smaller than A, B and A/B designs, still won't fit on a PC card. See this amp, for instance.

- Jeff

[vikingisson]

Originally Posted by PGPfan

I understand why people 'think' a system like this can't sound good - or as good as - traditional audio equipment. It's hard to get one's brain around it, but it does work. Most existing amps are big and heavy due to heatsink size, and power supply transformer size. This is digital audio, where it is MUCH more efficient and as such no longer needs to be huge and heavy.

Digital or not, sound must eventually get to analog or we don't hear it. The new amps are indeed digital but have the room and power to convert down to analog for those speakers with excellent quality. It is like digital cameras, until recently the only advantage was the fact that they were digital. Picture quality was sub par. And like digital amps that still need analog outputs, all cameras still need an optical (analog) lens. The better the lens the better the picture, not better because of megapixels alone.
I'm sure you can get great sound from a card. Here's my scenario, sometimes I just want to surf the sat channels before deciding what I want to record. Usually the component output goes to sage via the HDPVR. Useless for channel surfing. But I have the passthrough component video and digital audio going to my external amp, I flip the input and enjoy it in the old fashion way. Can't do that with the pc audio card. Conversely I take the sage audio output via digital cable and component video through the same amp and enjoy it that way.
It comes down to what your needs are. My big heavy amp probably costs the same or close to a really good pc audio card and gives me a lot more flexibility. Heck, I still have vinyl music which I still say can sound better than CD but I don't listen to them except on special occasion. of course I use the same amp....

[PGPfan]

The thing that makes that 'amp' large is the toroid. The amp could easily fit inside a pc, not the power supply they chose to use. The DIVA board uses the switch mode power supply that is standard in a PC.

-PGPfan

[jsonnabend]

Originally Posted by PGPfan

The thing that makes that 'amp' large is the toroid. The amp could easily fit inside a pc, not the power supply they chose to use. The DIVA board uses the switch mode power supply that is standard in a PC.

-PGPfan

And the capacitors. A power amp is about power, and the power supply is critical. Yes, you could remove the transformer and the power caps and substitute a lower end power supply, but wouldn't that directly affect the sound? I think the answer is pretty obvious.

Oh, and to address Vikingisson's comment, class D amps are not "digital", they are switching.

- Jeff

[PGPfan]

Hi Jeff,

Of course the power supply can and does affect the sound quality, but the amp you gave as an example is, for lack of a better term, using power supply technology more frequently used (and needed) in class A/B amps than for a class D (or commonly termed 'digital' even though technically they aren't) amps. I'm sure it sounds great, but I assure you the design they opted to use isn't the ONLY way to power an amp to make it sound good.

Ten years ago if you described the concept of a class d amp to someone, they'd tell you there'd be no way it could sound good - let alone work. The reality has proven otherwise, much the same way that given time and work a 'switched' mode power supply will be shown to be a very valid design option.

Again, I'm not saying they are perfect by any means - just that people can no longer rule out the possibility that a class d amp inside a PC could actually sound very good.

-PGPfan

[vikingisson]

Either way you go or put the terminology, you can get great sound if you pick the right combo. There isn't one best way. I generically called mine a digital amp, not a class/D. It deals with my varied digital and analog sources in the best way without buying too many AV components that I don't already have for other reasons. If little chips on a card can do the same thing these days then that's great. Like the cameras, it took a while.
It is ironic that I did buy an HD-PVR but would have preferred an internal card that might do a better job. I want card based capture and external D/A output processing. Opposite thinking for the same result.

[panteragstk]

Originally Posted by PGPfan

Hi Jeff,

Of course the power supply can and does affect the sound quality, but the amp you gave as an example is, for lack of a better term, using power supply technology more frequently used (and needed) in class A/B amps than for a class D (or commonly termed 'digital' even though technically they aren't) amps. I'm sure it sounds great, but I assure you the design they opted to use isn't the ONLY way to power an amp to make it sound good.

Ten years ago if you described the concept of a class d amp to someone, they'd tell you there'd be no way it could sound good - let alone work. The reality has proven otherwise, much the same way that given time and work a 'switched' mode power supply will be shown to be a very valid design option.

Again, I'm not saying they are perfect by any means - just that people can no longer rule out the possibility that a class d amp inside a PC could actually sound very good.

-PGPfan

I bet it sounds better than my 10y old kenwood pos. Although my kenwood has gotten me 100x my monies worth out of it. It just isn't enough for my room.

Also, Rotel makes a 7x100 class d amp using B&O Ice power module that sounds awesome. There are people out there using it to power B&W 800 series speakers which cost about $20k.

Class d has come a long way. There are still some that say class a/b sound better, but they should considering the technology has been around 30 years or so. Don't get me started on tube amps...